Amos Yong is a Malaysian-America and Director of the Center for Missiological Research and Professor of Theology and Mission and the Dean of School of Theology and School of Intercultural Studies at Fuller Seminary at Fuller Theological Seminary. In addition to specializing in Pentecostalism, Dr Yong also teaches and writes on Disability and the Christian, world missions, how to love others, and a slew of other helpful subjects.
The Laymens Lounge – I think it would be helpful for listeners to maybe start with the simplest question, and the most, I guess the big picture questions, about the Holy Spirit – and talking with my wife about this, we think that if you could help people with this question it would be amazing: the Son (Jesus) seems most relatable out of the Godhead (God the Father, God the Son, God the Spirit), probably because he came in flesh. He’s human, He’s personified it, it’s something that we can easily think of. The second member of the Godhead that seems most relatable is the Father, because most of us have fathers, whether they were loving or not, we have something to work with there. However, with the Spirit there’s nothing. It seems natural for us to think of the Spirit as a “force”, yet we know the Holy Spirit is not a “force”, it’s a person. Can you help us try to have something to work with the spirit that’s relatable?
Amos Yong – Thank you for the question, it’s wonderful question, I’m not sure how helpful this will be, but I would say a couple of things:
The Laymens Lounge – Dr. Young when I’m praying, I often pray in the shower, when I’m washing my stinky armpits, should I be praying to the spirit? And, if I am, in my mind when I’m thinking of the Spirit (because I know we’re told to pray for the spirit) should I be thinking of Jesus? Or should I be thinking of like my local church community?
Amos Yong – Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes in many respects. Yeah, I mean, I think it’s certainly appropriate to say, “Come Holy Spirit”. Just like it is appropriate to say, “Come, Lord Jesus”. Now most of the time when we say “Come, Lord Jesus”, we’re intending what he historic tradition calls the parousia, which is the second coming of the Lord. On the other hand, I also think that our praying “Come Lord Jesus” should be open to him being present in our lives through His Spirit, in anticipation of the second coming. meaning that the sending of the spirit is also in anticipation of the second coming, and as part and parcel of that coming that establishes some of the possibilities for, and provides intimations of, what that coming will more fully unveil in the future. Now, “Come Holy Spirit” say “Come Body of Christ” not so much there. Although I think it is also appropriate for us as we pray to say that our prayer, while yes, of you as an individual, in the shower – so let’s recognize the personal character of that prayer. But nevertheless, I do think that the prayer of us as individual members of the body of Christ are also at its most, if you will, their fullest, if you will, when they’re prayers also with one another. That’s whether we’re talking about in corporate togetherness, or whether we’re talking about praying with the saints, praying with the tradition, meaning that every individual personal prayer is, in some respects, always part of that broader prayer of the of the people of God – the broader groaning and yearning. So there’s never only an individual prayer without taking away that the sacredness of your shower time. But that shower prayer is really more fully at its fullest, if you will, when it’s consistent with, and calls out with the tradition, the saints and the body of Christ. So that our prayers are always, in that respect, in and with and through your body.
The Laymens Lounge – Romans chapter 8 talks about “the spirit praying through us”. And I believe it’s Ephesians chapter 6 that talks about “praying in the Spirit”. Do you think it’s an accurate way of viewing prayer, to think of prayer as being, I guess, birthed by the Spirit > through the son > to the Father? Do you think that’s a biblical sequence?
Amos Yong – I do think that’s biblical. I do think that’s a helpful. Um, I’m not sure that I would say that understanding that sequence, in a technical sense, is either important or possible. In the sense that I do think that the scriptures give us a lot of different ways to formulate the relationship between, if you will, Father, Son, and spirit. So that, in some respects, I’m not sure that there’s only one way in which all three relate. So I think my point would be to say that “Yes, I can Grant what you’ve said, as long as we don’t then make it exclusive in some way.” But more importantly, I do think that there is something fundamental about, if you will, what we do in the spirit, that, in fact, that harkens back to what you said earlier, or one of you said earlier, that there’s a sense in which everything that we do as those who are in the body of Christ, and those who are followers of Jesus, and those who are part of the people of God, that we are only what we are members of the body of Christ, followers of Jesus, part of the people of God, in and through God’s Spirit. There is no such participation, no such identity, no such discipleship, apart from the spirit. So that from that perspective, this paradox of all of our prayer, all of our faithfulness, our discipleship, anything that we might do that might have any kind of theological significance only has significance because we are doing so in part responding to, in part enabled by, and in part following the initiative of the Spirit… Even when we don’t think about it that way! In other words, we don’t have to recognize that we are doing so in and through the Spirit, but if we’re doing it then its only in and through the Spirit.
The Laymens Lounge – Is there a benefit to knowing, the sort of, behind the scenes theology?
Amos Yong – I think that there is. All theological understanding, there is a benefit. It’s not as if those who don’t have the knowledge, don’t get the benefits. But the more that we know, the more that we can benefit. In other words, God will use us, God will work through us according to the level of our knowledge and our availability. But it’s true, isn’t it that the more we know, the more we can, if you will be receptive and enjoy even and welcome that work.
The Laymens Lounge – Formally, for me, there were certain truths in Scripture that were sort of Like on an island, I would say, where the doctrine of justification was kind of by itself, but it wasn’t related to anything. And then I would study the doctrine of adoption, but I would study that but it wasn’t related to anything. But then once I understood union with Christ, it connected all of these ideas! I’m a child of God because I’m connected, I’m literally part of Jesus, and the Spirit is the one who I believe connected me to Christ. So then, back to the idea that we do everything through the Spirit is based on the idea that Christ on earth did everything through the Spirit. I think Luke 10 says that “he was joyful through the Spiri”t. Hebrews says, “through the eternal spirit offered himself unblemished.” John 3 says that “the Spirit has been poured out upon the sun without measure.” And so, if you pay close attention, you realize that Jesus did everything through the Spirit. And so it follows that if I’m in Christ, and I also do everything through the Spirit because I’m connected to Christ, it would be it would be a contradiction If I’m in Christ, and I’m not functioning through the Spirit, just like Christ always did. Is that right?
Amos Yong – Yeah. It goes back to what you said earlier, that before you, you understood justification, and adoption, etc, etc. And then you started seeing that they were connected, which actually is one of the secrets, if you will, of what the Spirit does, the Spirit of God does, right. I mean, so in my book, the Spirit of Love that you referred to, I talk about how the theological tradition has long taught that the Spirit is the bond of love between the Father and the Son, and that’s scripturally based and you can look it up in my book for the scriptural references. But beyond that, you could also say that the Spirit is how God relates to God’s creation, and you can look in my book there’s I’ll give you some scripture references for that. And you can also see how the spirit not only relates, if you will, between the Godhead, and between God and creation, but that the Spirit relates creatures to each other within creation. In other words, the Spirit is a great connector connecting in multiple domains dimensions and directions. And it’s in part for that reason that once we, if you will, experience more and more the fullness of the Spirit – connections always continue to open up: connections between us and God, connections between us and ourselves, I mean, we are actually rather complicated and complex creatures ourselves. Some of us have fragmented personalities, I’m not talking about DSM diagnosis, I’m just talking about how we’re just complex creatures and the spirit enables further cohesion amongst ourselves without eliminating, if you will, the distinctive parts of ourselves that make up who we are. And then the spirit enables creatures to relate to each other. Right, the body of Christ for instance, the spirit enables us to relate to those outside the body of Christ. The spirit enables us to relate like the Good Samaritan to Jews or whoever we are to those outside our tribe. The spirit enables us to relate to the created materiality of the world, its creatures, its non-human creatures, the environment itself. In other words, it’s life in the spirit that gives us deeper and ever-increasing awareness and sensibility of our interrelatedness is the way I would put it, with God, with within ourselves with others with the world. So that’s, I think that what you were gesturing toward, and when you first started out that, you know, if you will, in our own way, in our own discursively: Yeah, there’s a atonement over here and justification over there and sanctification somewhere in the back shelf. But life in the spirit means that all of a sudden they start interrelating. And yeah, that’s why theologically to move in a new methodological direction is very confusing because theologically, we want to keep everything so have nice and neatly defined and separated. Yeah. But the spirit just simply moves us into life into connecting someone I think one of you said earlier, the letter of Scripture with the real world of buzzing and booming and dynamic creatures in action. And that’s what we are. So pneumology is simply now attempting to think God’s thoughts after our acting – after our after our responding to and relating to God. And I think I think New pneumology helps us to begins to acclimatize us to doing that.
The Laymens Lounge – In marriage, you become one flesh. That’s what Scripture says and there’s a union there. And what I want to try to do is help people understand what the Spirit is. I think Romans eight also talks about the spirit being this spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ. And I want to know if this is correct: Can people see that we all have a spirit, the scripture says, we have a spirit – And so Christ has a spirit – And the father also has a spirit. But they are one. And so I ask: Are the father and the son one because they share the same spirit, namely, the Holy Spirit?
Yeah. Well, I guess I would say that that’s a very good reformed question, which means actually that it doesn’t give forth any good answers. Let me come at that question another way. That’s a very good scholastic question, which therefore doesn’t give forth very many good answers to those outside the Scholastic arena. Or, let me put it again in another way that certain true discursive traditions will frame the conversation in certain ways that lead to questions such as the ones that you asked. And while those discussions of traditions, therefore, also, in some respects give some answers to those questions, they’re never fully satisfactory… Those questions only arise given certain presuppositions and certain contexts of conversation. So my point would be something like: to ask whether or not the Spirit of God is the same as the Spirit of Christ is the same as the Holy Spirit is to ask a question that can be answered both Yes, and both No, but in different ways. And so it’s not to say that either one of those is right or wrong. It’s simply to say that well, it depends on what the context of the conversation that the question is being asked…
The Laymens Lounge – I think I think the real question is, can the Holy Spirit make a martini so big that Jesus couldn’t drink it? Would we all agree that that’s the most pressing? Seriously though here’s an easy one: I have a disagreeable personality. I’m, I’m beating myself and, you know, putting in stones in my mouth and trying to be you know, try to just be a nicer guy, just a better husband. Not such a lazy Dad, you know. And every morning in the shower, because I know this promise that says if you’re filled with the Spirit, you “won’t fulfill the desires of the flesh”. And then I often pray that back to God and then I, I pray back these things requesting the promised fruits of the Spirit of love, joy, peace and patience. And I pray and I say I want to be filled with the Spirit so that I will be up just like a nicer guy, a better husband and that I will have love joy, peace, patience, but no sooner do I get out and dry myself off that I’m you know, shouting out my wife saying “You put too much salt these eggs woman!” So what am I doing wrong? What should the Christians expectation be? How do we get filled with the Spirit? And what is expected? And what of those of us who are praying for that and we just still seem like jerks? Are we not filled with the Spirit? Is there something Im missing. Any thoughts on that?
Amos Yong – Ah, a couple maybe. First of all, just go hug and kiss your wife and lover. Put your arms around her and tell her how wonderful She is. The second thing I would say would be yes, there is a sense in which we have already received the Spirit. There is a sense in which we are continuing to receive more and more of the spirit and there’s a sense in which we are yet to fully receive Spirit. And all of those are true. To put it in reformed terms: I was saved, I’m being saved, and I will be saved. And so, just because we have already received the Spirit, doesn’t mean that there is not more of the spirit to be received in some way. And here, there are a lot of different discursive traditions, Catholic, Lutheran, reformed, Wesleyan, etc, that give us different language conceptual metaphors to talk about that. Whether it’s the filling metaphor, whether it’s the baptism metaphor, whether it’s, in other words, have lots of different ways to keep conceptualizing what that means and all of those have something to offer. Which is then also not to say that we haven’t received the Spirit in some significant substantive full way, right? So this paradox, I mean, there’s no such thing as partially receiving the spirit. But then there’s also no such thing as not needing to continue to be open to more of what that filling reception means can be expressed, can be manifest, can be worked out, can be enjoyed, and so on. And then there’s the full sense in which we are waiting for that down deposit, you know, that, that deposit fully flowers to bear full fruition, coming to full fruition. So, that’s what life in the spirit is. It’s, in that respect, recognizing where new creation on the one hand, on the other hand, recognizing that we are continually being reformed and transformed, on the other hand, and recognizing on the third hand, that there’s a future that’s coming, in which our transformation will be complete. Sometimes I do think it’s good to be exasperated because our exasperation is a sign that we need to attend to some things. Other times, it’s a matter of not beating ourselves up when we are, you know, feeling like we’re falling short, because that’s part of what the spiritual life entails – its recognizing that…
The Laymens Lounge – This is something that Joe and I have this conversation about, like, three times a week… At the end of the day, I just, I basically am running with this one passage where it says “if you’re filled with the Spirit you won’t fulfill the desires of the flesh” and the reality is, it seems like no matter how much I pray for the Spirit I still end up fulfilling the desires of my flesh… I’m in a season in my life where I’m often praying for the spirit to fill me, whereas prior to last, you know, a year ago, I was praying often that I would just have integrity and be a good man and glorify the Father yet I see no tangible difference between praying either one of those.
Amos Yong – I would say don’t despair, in that prayer, number one. Number two, I do think that you know, different traditions will talk about different ways in which the Spirit is manifest differently. And so sometimes I do wonder whether or not… We talked earlier about how the spirit is manifest in the body of Christ that we’re a part of. And I do think that as we cross paths with those members of the body that we don’t, that we are unfamiliar with or haven’t had connections to, as we cross those paths and interact with these people, God expands our understanding God enriches our lives or maybe our practices. So my point would be that: I think part of the journey involves us, yes, being faithful in the ecclesiastical contexts in which will be located on the one hand, but also on the other hand, say “okay, well, what other contexts might be available to me for me to have koinonia, for me to rub shoulders with, for me to pursue God with, for me to experience God’s many members of the body and there different gifts through…” In other words, if I if I’m just limited in my ecclesial life to a certain form, well, okay, you’ll be limited in your ecclesiastical life to that certain form. But as we continue, and I’m not just saying church hop, I’m not saying that, but maybe part of what you’re hungry for is to say, “What other ways might God continue to expand and fill me which comes in part through these members of the body?” not always, because God can sometimes you know, introduce surprises in our lives quite apart from any, if you will, ecclesial connectivities. But I also think that the that’s, in part, what the nature of the body and its many members in its many gifts are. So hanging out with different members of the body on a consistent basis over time, will nurture and allow cultivation of different expressions, manifestations, gifts, etc. for the goodness of the body.
The Laymens Lounge – If someone’s flipping through their phone and sees a podcast, that’s about the spirit and they listen to it, and it’s just a mom, like, can you bring to the ground as well as you can? The person who just wants to live like Christ? How do they? It seems like it is done through the Spirit… There’s verses that say, like Colossians 1:8 says “we heard of your love through the Spirit”, and I think it’s Romans 15:30 where Paul urges them to “pray through the love of the Spirit.” We know that love is a fruit of the spirit – love is not a fruit of fallen nature… How do we, I guess the word is access? Or how do we empower ourselves? Timothy talks about how the Spirit gives us power and love. I know there’s not a formula, but is there a disposition like should we be seeking the most?
Amos Yong – Yeah, well, thanks for asking. I actually really appreciate, I think it was Joe, who said earlier… Although I’m confusing Joe and Jason now because your voices sound kind of…
The Laymens Lounge – [Jason] I’m the handsome one. Hehehe
Amos Yong – I knew it! But, in any case, the previous comment was: I’ve been praying for the spirit and, you know, more intentionally, and I and I think there is something important about that. On the other hand, I also think that there’s a sense in which we can ask ourselves be filled of God: of His Son Jesus, and of his spirit that doesn’t necessarily need to focus on, if you will, “the spirit”. But it’s really the cry that says, “Lord, manifest more and more of yourself to me”. And I think that’s really the posture at the end of the day. Because sometimes we can seek after, if you will, an image or a conceptual reality or a label, whereas I think what you’re both saying, you’re talking about the mother who chances upon the podcast, want the Spirit. And, you know, in fact, I just came back from a weekend with my 26 year old daughter who has a 21 month old daughter, and a two month old son. And her husband is gone 12 hours a day at his job. And you know what she’s doing for 12 hours a day and she’s got no time for technical disputations, you know, about pneumatology? Whereas what she really wants is a sense of God’s presence. What she really needs is the joy of the Lord that is her strength. Yeah, and that’s a cry for God. We may not even have the language to say “come Holy Spirit”, but we’re saying, “God, I need you.” And I think that that cry actually is a cry that, if we actually understood, can help us to be open to how God might be present in, what we might otherwise call, the mundaneness of life, right? In other words, we, maybe we’re looking for expressions that have some presuppositions behind them. Maybe we have certain assumptions about what is or is not the Spirit. And so when we pray, come Holy Spirit, we expect those things as opposed to how God might want to manifest God’s self in our circumstances. My point is simply that, as we go back to what we said in the very beginning, Jesus Himself said, in the parable of the sheep and the goats that he was actually present when they weren’t actually attending to his presence. They weren’t actually cognizant of that presence. They weren’t ready to receive His presence manifest in, what we might otherwise call the mundaneness of life, right? People who are hungry, people who are in prison, people who are sick… I mean, she’s got sick kids all the time, right? and she doesn’t think that she’s experiencing the Holy Spirit unless we begin to alert ourselves and pray and say, Lord, show me your presence in this moment. And then all of a sudden tending to her sick children becomes an act of engaging with the divine reality in her midst. Whereas if we praying come Holy Spirit, while nursing our child, we might neglect that the reality of the Spirit’s presence in that act, possibly. So, I guess my point would be to say is I want to just continue to affirm that crying out for God’s manifest presence crying out for more of God, for whether you’re a mom or whether you’re a plumber or whether you’re whatever it is you’re doing, if your heart is simply saying, Lord, I want more of you Then that’s what God wants to reveal to us. whatever we’re doing wherever we’re at in life, whatever our knowledge, our state of knowledge is, maybe that prayer is simply a reminder to look and ask and say, “Lord, where are you right now, in this moment?” “How do I see you here?” Notice I didn’t say, “God, how do I bring you here?” – I said “How do I see you here?” Meaning that God’s already there. The spirits already there. The Prayer is simply how do I realize that more substantively and palpably, that I currently do. I think that’s really the prayer of all of us, right? We all want God’s manifest presence; we know in our heads that he’s here but we don’t often pause and slow down long enough to actually attend to what here is, and how God is present here.
The Laymens Lounge – Thank you Dr. Amos young. Thank you so much. If any of you guys were stirred, we want to encourage you to go read your Bible. Go Pray. And you could you could Google “Dr. Amos Young” (and it’s “Yong”, not “Young”). He’s got a book called theology in Down syndrome (linked below), another one called the Bible, disability and the church (also linked below). And right now, for $0.99 on Kindle, who is the Holy Spirit a walk with the apostles (link below). Dr. Young, we are really grateful. Hopefully we can have more chats like this.
Amos Yong – Thank you both. God bless you.
Fides quaerens intellectum † Faith seeking understanding † Aithfay eekingsay understandingya
